Gaetano Pesce is an Italian architect, artist, designer and person of the world who has lived and practiced in New York City since 1980. His first high-profile work is arguably the 69-year-old designer's best, the famous "Up" armchair, which exploded in popularity at the 1969 Milan furniture show. The organic shape of polyurethane foam resembles the beautiful curves of a woman's body. A light spherical ottoman is tied to the chair with a rope, provoking an image of enslavement and protest against gender inequality. If you are not up to politics, take a different look at this chair. It will appear amusing and playful - you hit the ball, and it comes back to you again. How many ideas can fit in one chair? Yes, as much as necessary! The "Up" chair can be easily crumpled to an almost flat state, since it has no frame and is 80% air. The package in which the chair is sold is so small and light that anyone can bring it home from the store on their own. Having freed itself from the packaging, the chair will appear out of nowhere - a real modern performance in an ordinary home. Plus, the Pesce chair is incredibly comfortable! Over the years, the designer has created thousands of innovative designs for the world's leading brands and prestigious museum collections.
Pesce admits that he is very interested in modern Moscow, in which he never ceases to find many surprises and discoveries. He compares a dynamic metropolis to New York or Tokyo. In 2002, at the Milan Furniture Salon, the designer once again surprised the world with his installation "Moscow Room" with rubber furniture, curly lamps, pillows in the form of Russian Orthodox domes, profiles of Stalin and Putin, a blanket with a map of Moscow - all on a backlit glass floor decorated with small red hammers and sickles. In 2007, his big retrospective took place in St. Petersburg. To the surprise of the designer, it turned out that he is much more popular in Russia than in America, and is now busy with a number of Russian projects. In the designer's studio on Broadway, we are surrounded by colorful vases, sofas, armchairs, architectural models, paintings, books and other inspiring and seemingly animate objects that make this room one of the most amazing in the world.
I heard that your fantastic apartment has appeared in Moscow. According to rumors, a river flows right between the rooms and the kids race in boats. Is this really so?
Gossip! I really came up with such an apartment, as you say, for my Moscow customer, but then his wife asked me to make a sofa out of silver. I said okay, let's paint your sofa silver. It turned out that she wanted a sofa made of real silver that would weigh two tons, maybe more. I don't do this kind of thing. At this point, the project ended.
Or maybe your project has been implemented and you just do not know about it. What other projects are you involved in in Russia?
Just today I finished a project for a developer in St. Petersburg. He wants to build a small village of private mansions, and he asked me to make a recreation center with a gym, beauty salon and a playground. I also advised to include in the project three greenhouses in the form of Russian domes. I don't like architecture devoid of identification, so I wanted to use something with a local character. During conversations with a client, it turned out that the shape of these domes originated from a fiery tongue. Therefore, my domes are expressed in a more expressive form - flames. I imagine them assembled from bright multicolored glass. I am flying to Russia for the presentation of this project.
How many times have you been to Russia?
At least ten. I was there for the first time in 1958 to experience communism for myself. I traveled there for three weeks to different cities and everything looked the same. Then I thought about the fact that there is an international style in architecture and an international style in politics. I could not agree that everything should be the same in China, Russia or Europe. I began to think that architecture should be like people. We are all different and our architecture should be different. Climate, culture, context and so on should give birth to different architecture. Now Moscow is a city where there was an explosion of curiosity. There is such a great interest in everything unusual! I really like it there … Architecture is very rare. What surrounds us everywhere is not architecture, but just buildings. Architecture happens once every hundred years. Architecture means innovation, new materials. The Frank Lloyd Wright Falls House is architecture. The Brunelleschi dome is innovative in its expression, structure, materials. But if you repeat the same dome today, then this is no longer architecture, but an ordinary building.
Tell me, is Pesce your real name?
Of course.
It means fish in Italian. Is this symbolic to you?
Yes, you know, in some cultures, fish plays a special role. In China, it is associated with health. The Chinese keep aquariums with fish in the house so that the disease that has come is passed on to the fish, and the owner remains healthy. And if you put together five Greek letters meaning "Jesus Christ the Son of God Savior", then they form the word "fish". I designed a marina in a small town in Italy and from above it looks like a huge fish. Not because of my name, but because the fish has a symbolic meaning, and I am sure that today we need to return to figurative architecture, not abstract. If you look at many modern buildings, you can never tell what is inside. I am sure that in the future we will refer to symbols more often to distinguish the purposes of different buildings.
Increasingly, architects are using what Charles Jencks calls an enigmatic form, or a sign of mystery. In other words, buildings are associated with different shapes. The best examples are the buildings of Corbusier or Gehry. Guggenheim Gehry resembles a mermaid, a swan, an artichoke, a sailboat and, of course, a whale or a fish in general
How interesting! And it seemed to me that Gehry was very abstract. Let me show you something (Pesce walks over to his desk and brings some pictures). Take a look at the interior of this house. When you look out the window, you see the profile of the face (the face forms the contrast of the wavy frame of a large window, a blank wall and a small round window-eye - VB). Also cabinets and furniture resemble human bodies and faces. This is my own home in Brazil. So Pesce is not the only fish alive.
Do you think it humanizes architecture?
This is the path to how to make architecture more intelligible to people who do not understand bare abstraction. The problem with abstraction is that it takes away from the local context and erases the identification of a particular place. Judge for yourself - a church looks like an apartment building, an apartment building looks like a factory, and so on. A real mess. Interior items indicate the function of a building - bed, sofa, table, sink - but architecture no longer tends to make such distinctions. This is a real identity crisis.
You studied at the architecture school in Venice. Did you meet someone there who had a special influence on you?
My school was the best in Italy. And her professors were among those who were denied teaching at other universities. They were very progressive architects and historians, especially Carlo Scarpa and Bruno Dzevi. There were 75 students and 30 or 35 professors, so we were very close.
A huge number of things - from fashion, cinema to industrial design, furniture, cars and so on, are made in Italy. What makes Italian design so special?
Italian design is the fruit of Italian art. In the 20th century, futurism influenced all areas of art - painting, sculpture, theater, poetry, music, architecture. This movement was founded by the poet Filippo Marinetti. It glorified speed, energy, industrialization, productivity and generally the machine and technological triumph over nature. The industry has become the center of life. Creativity played a huge role in production, and designers, not artists, were at the forefront of the process and mass production. The high level of design is common and widespread in Italy. Good design is everywhere, on every street.
Have you played an active role in movements like Alchemy and Memphis?
No, I was active in the Radical Design movement. I also created an experimental radical design company called Braccio di Ferro, which means steel hand. I have never collaborated with Alchemy and Memphis because both of them were postmodernists. For me, postmodernism is a reactionary movement.
What is the difference between what you did and postmodernism?
At Braccio di Ferro, we were looking for a new progressive expression, while Alchemy and Memphis simply resurrected and repeated the style of the 1930s. I will give an example (Pesce walks over to his desk and brings back some photographs of the 1970 installation Calvary). This scene was not a revival of the past. Everything here is very modern - chairs, table, suits and so on. The idea came from history, but it was conveyed in essence, and not in the forms and style of that time. There is a connection between design, history and religion. Design is more than just a decorative layer. It can claim a deeper dimension.
What is good design for you?
I believe that good design is a commentary on today's life. It is not just an expression of form and style, but what happens in everyday life. This is a commentary from the real world.
Why, after graduating from architecture school, did you focus on armchairs and not buildings?
You don't need a lot of money to realize the idea of a chair. All you need is to find a company that would be interested in your idea. In architecture, this is much more difficult and risky. Developers are reluctant to spend money on innovation. They will not pay to keep your building blue in the morning and red in the afternoon as the air temperature changes.
Is this the architecture you dream of?
Of course. Or the elastic house I tried to build in Brazil. I used rubber and resin to build the wall and one day it collapsed. You will ask why? Because it was an experiment!
How did it come crashing down?
It was an experimental house. I tried to make a structure that no one else had been able to build before. So it collapsed.
Have you restored this wall, house?
Not. There was no longer enough money for the restoration. Therefore, I tell you that architecture has the limits of innovation. In the future, I am sure, architecture will resemble our own body - not a rigid and frozen form, but organic and responsive to atmospheric changes. You know, rubber smells terrible, so I added juniper, which smells really good. I mixed them together to improve the atmosphere. This is the kind of architecture I want to create - a place that I would like to smell, touch and examine. Modern technologies are already allowing us to move in this direction.
Why did you leave Italy?
Perhaps for the same reasons that you left Ukraine. You know your home place very well and you want to know the world. I've lived in Venice, London, Helsinki, Paris, and now I'm in New York.
You taught in New York at first, didn't you?
Yes, I tried to teach students how to invent elastic architecture at Cooper Union. I was very different from the rest of the professors there. For example, Eisenman explored a very rigid and dogmatic architecture reminiscent of the geometry of Theo van Doesburg. I worked with students to design elastic skyscrapers in Manhattan. I remember that girls did the best projects. They feel elasticity much better. We experimented a lot with rubber, rubber, resin, crystals. One girl came up with a building that would exhibit various deformations. It was a tiny library. When it was filled with people, the building squatted, tilted, and so on. In other words, the building was in contact with the environment. I am convinced that a modern building should express new technologies in a variety of ways.
Tell us about your way of working
Very simple. I come up with an idea and look for a customer to implement it. Now there are three of us in my office, and another carpenter works in the workshop. For example, if our project in Russia is approved, then I will cooperate with a local architect.
Is rubber your favorite material?
It seems to me that every time should have its own materials. There was a time when architecture was realized in wood, brick or marble. Today we mainly use materials that were used in the past - metal, concrete and glass. I'm trying to use new materials. I discovered the possibilities of rubber after graduation. I contacted various chemical companies and laboratories to learn about the uses and potential of all silicones and alloys. Since then, I have been overwhelmed by these amazing materials and always use them in my projects. Although even today, many students know little about rubber. Architectural schools must first of all teach the latest materials and technologies.
After you've created so many different things, do you dream of coming up with something new for the first time?
There is always room for innovation and discovery, which is why you often do something for the first time. Now I am making a table. Usually the table is rectangular. But I'm not at all sure that it should be that way. For me, the question mark is very important. Therefore, in the plan, this table took the form of a question mark, and inside and around this question I placed irregular rectangular protrusions - one per person. Thus, each place is very individual. Each place has its own shape and color. Nowadays there are many questions and not many answers. Many of my projects have a question mark, not an exclamation mark.
Architect Studio in New York
543 Broadway, SoHo, Manhattan
February 19, 2008
