Michel Rohkind visited Moscow at the invitation of the Strelka Institute, where he gave a lecture entitled “Architecture Beyond Set Boundaries”.
Archi.ru:
- You pay a lot of attention to the social aspects of the project. How do you manage to convince customers, primarily commercial ones, of the need for a "social burden"?
Michel Rohkind:
- We always explain to our clients: only if we cooperate for real, we will get the best result. And we always question the proposed program, and the customer must agree with our approach, even if initially he had a completely correct program. We tell him that only with a team of anthropologist, financier, industrial designer we will get a decent result. The client must understand that our workshop strives to create the best possible project that gives something to the city. But how to provide this “gift” to the city is a big question, because the client always stands above you, as he pays. However, the project concerns many people, not only the one who paid for it. And if the customer does not understand the need for the social component of the project, if he only wants to build a “monument” to himself, we will not work with him. Therefore, we often have to refuse clients - although not always. But now customers are already aware of how we work - from strategy to detailed project development.
You have completed a series of projects for Nestlé, from a museum to installations on a street in Mexico City. How did this collaboration come about?
“First, we were invited to design a visitor center for children on a tour of the chocolate factory. However, we found that this place is just a freeway 40 minutes from Mexico City with a succession of identical factories: one is pharmaceutical, another is Nestlé, the third is some other, and it is impossible to distinguish between them, they have no "identity". We convinced the customer that the children would be upset because they expected to find themselves in the kingdom of chocolate … We researched this issue and found out that there is no chocolate museum in Mexico at all. Our government didn't found it, which is pretty ridiculous since it even used cocoa beans as currency in the past. And we suggested that Nestlé create such a museum, since the government missed this opportunity. Build your brand, but also benefit the community: create a chocolate museum where children will come. And they listened to us, and now they are our regular customers.
Did you enjoy working with Nestlé? You have made several projects for them …
- I liked working with them, because they realized that it is important to contribute to the development of society, to establish connections with people, and not only to sell, sell and sell … And the same thing happened with our new customers, companies for which we made department stores and other stores. Such orders may not seem "glamorous" to the architect, and he would prefer to design a cultural institution such as a museum or theater. But I believe that the department store also has potential, it can also carry a social burden. Why should a person buy in this particular store? If he makes a purchase there, he expects something in return from the store. And this is exactly how we have been working with customers over the past few years, trying to make them socially responsible, and no matter what level of this responsibility, the main thing is that they understand that every building built in the city has a responsibility towards it.
You have projects of various sizes, from a skyscraper to a small office on the roof and a restaurant. Is it important for you to control all the details?
- The craft is very important to us! If you do not understand the craft side of the matter, then it is extremely difficult to understand how to build at all. Technology is just a tool, not a solution. They are created in order to facilitate the process of work, to make it more efficient. Sometimes people think, “Oh, I have computers! Now they will do all the work for me! " But a computer will make your job easier if you only know how to handle it. You can develop an object on a computer, but we want real people on the ground to be engaged in production, those who know their craft. It doesn't matter which country we work in, we like to understand what the local professions and skills are, the materials and how they are processed. We never say: "Oh, we import everything here!"
"You need to know where the brick should lie." This is the basic law if you want to be an architect ?
- You need to know what happens when you break a brick, or when you lay it sideways, when you connect it with cement. This is what we do - we play. We design, we craft, we create …
But this is a high level for an architect
- Yes, and I try not to lose it! This is why we only have 25 people in the office. I like this scale when you understand what we are working on and with whom.
Mexico City, one of the largest cities in the world, is obviously forced to solve the same problems now as Moscow, the largest city in Europe: an overloaded transport system, environmental problems, overcrowding, insufficiently thought out planning, etc. What methods do you think are the most promising for way out of this situation?
- We try to avoid ready-made formulas, as they limit you. As soon as you create a formula, you start to think that everything should correspond to it. Yes, the key problems are related to transport and lack of public spaces. These spaces exist, but pedestrians do not seem to exist there: this is a city for cars. Transport is a priority, so the possible walks are too long. This must change.
As I see it from countries like Mexico, chaos is a potential opportunity. There are problems, but architecture can solve them. It's our job to solve problems. However, when you think of them as problems, your task only becomes more complicated, but if you think of them as a convenient opportunity to solve something, the problem turns into a challenge, and you are already thinking about designing infrastructure, sidewalk, park … In the past, an architect didn't really care about the street, he was interested in buildings. And now, if I think about the street, the buildings on it will also be better. The project should be about everything. This is very important to discuss, since the very practice of architecture is changing in this direction. The project begins with negotiations about what exactly needs to be designed. And then you design the building - or maybe something else.
As you design the future of cities, you design scenarios of what might happen. This is the main advantage of living in a country where there is a certain amount of chaos. Because if everything works incredibly well, then what to design? If the streets were extremely beautiful and convenient for pedestrians, there would be the right balance of infrastructure, buildings and citizens, what would architects have to do? And we, for example, are working on the issue of equality, so that not only residents who move to the area in the course of gentrification, but also everyone else benefit from good projects …
“It's like 'you should be thinking about the Universe, but at the same time you shouldn't be thinking about the Universe.' How do you find your way?
- We must maintain balance and understand that we are all responsible. Sometimes we say, "Oh, the government should provide it!" But we must ask for this, work on it, demonstrate possible solutions to the problem, because it is possible that the government does not even know how to take the necessary actions. And, if we work with public and private investors and society, it is important for me to involve the right participants in the work on projects - professionals in finance, politics, regulations, designers, landscape architects, climate specialists: all these elements together will be able to give the right project.
How do you work with context, especially in a big city?
- For me, the most important context is not the physical, but the growth vector of the city as a whole, its impact on the urban structure, the plans of the authorities for the future. If I do not know these plans, the economic situation, the time frame and other details that may affect my building, I will not be able to do my job well. At the same time, the architect can become a negotiator between the authorities and the customer: for a special building permit and an exception to the zoning rules given by the municipality, he can agree with the client on the “contribution” of the future building to the public life of the city.
Such cases are not uncommon in architectural practice. For example, eight years ago I participated in a competition to build a skyscraper in Mississauga, Canada. Then the mayor there was Mrs. McCallion - a very domineering and energetic leader. She demanded that investors who wanted to build skyscrapers show her their calculations of the ratio of future costs to profits. And she offered them a deal: it would allow them to exceed the permissible height mark by 10 levels (or 6 floors), thus increasing the profit of investors, in return they would hold an international competition. She had the power to change existing zoning regulations, but most importantly, she knew exactly what she wanted, which was a great building that was integrated into the urban environment. As a result, the competition was won by the Chinese architect Ma Yansong, who built
Marilyn Monroe Towers. In my opinion, this is how it should be: the people should have a government that is ready to show initiative and negotiate. If we want someone to invest in our country, invest in various projects that bring profit to our country, we must ask ourselves: are we ready to sit down at the negotiating table? Should an architect be involved? Or does he just have to wait for a client with a ready-made program?
Our architects from time to time try to find national identity in architecture, now there is even a competition on the theme of "Russian character". In your opinion, how relevant is this in the era of globalization, is it even possible to talk about identity today, is it important to you?
- Very important. It is important to understand all the tools you have and what are the strengths of your background. These aspects are in one way or another a reflection of the cultural, economic and social contexts. It is also a non-standard way of dealing with your limitations. I would like to think that we are all human in one world. But if the whole architecture becomes the same, we will lose something. For example, I am originally from Mexico, I see things differently than you see them, to create a project in Russia I will have to immerse myself in your culture, try to understand the peculiarities of the climate, politics and history. It is enough to create something trivial, to repeat a certain cliché, to become a part of the culture. But if you want something more, you need to interpret, try to create a local identity - this is the task not only of architects, but also of all other cultural figures. And we are talking about the place where you are now, and not about where you were in the past. In your search for identity, you constantly strive to transform the previously defined, since identity is something living, natural, changeable, it grows, and its boundaries are blurred. It is not so easy to find your identity, but it is impossible without it.
Most interestingly, identity is a flexible framework for creativity and work. For me, "Mexican" means dynamics, chaos, sensuality, and not at all a cliché - a donkey in the hat of a mariachi musician. This is Mexico, but the way I see it - in relationships between people. But it would be a mistake to require everyone to design within the framework of this identity, there are many more possibilities to ponder over.
What do you consider the main task for an architect at the beginning of the 21st century?
- The goal is precisely what we are discussing now. In the understanding that architecture may not be enough, that we must go beyond the design of buildings, that structures must connect more meaningfully to each other than is happening now. Architects must take the initiative where the government fails: where public space or transportation has been forgotten. If all the necessary specialists get together in the work on the project, if new buildings "return" something to the city, then we will have the best cities. And we will make the government realize the importance of these problems: at least in my country, the authorities often do not care or they simply do not see the problem, they do not have a plan - although this is their area of responsibility. Therefore, I do my best to make my clients responsible: just a little generosity can give us better cities and a better society.
Centuries ago, architects followed the same rules and laws, but nothing has changed globally. However, society has changed …
- It should be so. Changes in society are taking place much faster than in a city that is not flexible enough in its structure. Of course, there are incredible examples of how a city is learning to "adjust." New York had strict planning regulations, but now it is changing much faster, because there is a need for it. Its streets were laid out very hard, but now ways have been found to arrange bike paths, landscaping, and no one forgets about cars.
This does not mean that we must do for the government its work, but we must take responsibility, we must cooperate with the authorities, if they want it, but if not, then with a private investor. Moreover, he should know that he will make more profitable investments if he cares about the city: people will notice him among all other developers who do not care. I believe that it is important to calculate all possible scenarios and think not only about what already exists, but also about what may arise.
